Has XSV changed the face of tournament Paintball forever?

[Chicago]

Or you may actually be crazy enough to be suggesting that all these gun manufacturers actually show you their source code so you can have someone 'inspect it'? That's valuable IP. And again these are the people sponsoring your event so it can be run... and again, who would this inspector be? Please don't just answer with 'someone'. You need a real person, with real (read expensive) skills to do this.

It's not valuable IP at all. Like I said, and like you said, turning trigger events into solenoid movements is a fairly trivial task to anyone with a decent amount of electrical engineering skill.

Now, maybe CURRENT gun chip code is valuable IP, because current gun chip code does a lot of things that are unnecessary for tournament guns (like tell you the temperature) or do things that are downright ILLEGAL for tournament guns. But it's exactly that IP that we're trying to get rid of.

I'm not identifying a single person to check the software because there is no single person. Any software that is allowed to run on a gun in a tournament must be public. EVERYBODY inspects the software. Put the source code on the website. Writing a basic program that takes trigger events and turns them into solenoid movements and posting the source code is just going to be the price of selling electronic markers to be used in tournaments, assuming you don't want to use the league-provided code instead. It's not like there's any patented process involved in "Trigger event -> Move solenenoid to position X for Y ms, move solenoid to position Z for W ms, move solenoid to off."

And even though the software is posted online, it's still copywritten.

 

[manike]

I like you Simon, but with all due respect - **** you. While America has it's share of ***holes, don't tar the entire country with the same brush. Maybe it's because we have a larger population, and consequently more asses to go around. To say that there are few if any americans who understand sportsmanship is the worst kind of generalization. is it fair to say Brits are a bunch of thugs after watching their world cup team stomping on other players?

Maybe you don't see the people who understand sportsmanship at national PB events because competing in this sport, in it's current format, is simpily not fun. Bonus balling, screaming obscenities, physical intimidation and outright violence? Where's the fun in that? I think PB attracts more people with anger management/personality issues than most other sports. Most of the players who appreciate sportsmanship and fair play are probably back in the woods, playing local events or reffing, although you'll still see a few in the lower PSP/NPPL divisions.

/RANT


PS - although if you're still living in South Jersey, that could explain a lot

Sorry. But with every serious sporting friend I've spoken to here, if I asked them 'would you break the rules any time you could if you believed it would allow you to win'. They've all said yes.

They've never asked which rules?, break them in what way?, or anything else. They just say yes. As an American brought up in a different way, you may get offended by the absurd generalisation I just made, and that's good, because you might be an exception. And the fact you work to officiate the rules, might just show that you are that exception. But I've not met many people like that in the USA. I just haven't. It's not common here. Win at all costs is common here.

It's why I've stopped playing tournaments. It's why lately the only place I enjoy playing paintball is at EMR. People that play there do seem to understand sportsmanship.

In thinking about it, I'm sorry, I should have made a proviso to my generalisation. Any American I know that plays sports at a highly competitive level. Not the ones that play for fun. I grant you that those people are different. Sometimes. But not always. I've never seen so many arseholes as playing a big game in New York. But again, as you point out. That might just be the area.

Chicago. Please answer the one question for me. Have you any experience with writing code or making paintball gun electronics?

p.s. There are a lot of people looking to patent electronic gun code. The reason they don't is because it becomes public information, and would be knocked off faster than the ink on the paper could dry.

 

[Robbo]

I like you Simon, but with all due respect - **** you. While America has it's share of ***holes, don't tar the entire country with the same brush. Maybe it's because we have a larger population, and consequently more asses to go around. To say that there are few if any americans who understand sportsmanship is the worst kind of generalization. is it fair to say Brits are a bunch of thugs after watching their world cup team stomping on other players?

Maybe you don't see the people who understand sportsmanship at national PB events because competing in this sport, in it's current format, is simpily not fun. Bonus balling, screaming obscenities, physical intimidation and outright violence? Where's the fun in that? I think PB attracts more people with anger management/personality issues than most other sports. Most of the players who appreciate sportsmanship and fair play are probably back in the woods, playing local events or reffing, although you'll still see a few in the lower PSP/NPPL divisions.

/RANT


PS - although if you're still living in South Jersey, that could explain a lot

Thank Gawd I generalised the conditions but was more selective in highlighting its negative consequences (Paintball).

Simon - shame(u) on you

 

[Chicago]

Chicago. Please answer the one question for me. Have you any experience with writing code or making paintball gun electronics?

Paintball guns specifically, no. Other electro-mechanical control systems? Yes. But I've consulted a few paintball gun electronics experts.

But, you're still raising objections to issues that are not relevant to the discussion. Saying it won't work because people can still have illegal settings is not relevant - the software isn't certified to prevent illegal settings, or certified so it's the same for all markers, merely so that it doesn't allow settings to be changed on the fly.

Are you worried that if everyone uses standard software you might be out of a job?

 

[manike]

Paintball guns specifically, no. Other electro-mechanical control systems? Yes. But I've consulted a few paintball gun electronics experts.

But, you're still raising objections to issues that are not relevant to the discussion. Saying it won't work because people can still have illegal settings is not relevant - the software isn't certified to prevent illegal settings, or certified so it's the same for all markers, merely so that it doesn't allow settings to be changed on the fly.

Are you worried that if everyone uses standard software you might be out of a job?

Which experts in this field have you consulted? I believe I know all (or at least the majority) and consider them friends. I've also worked with a few of them. I'd like to know which of them you have consulted with.

As to irrelevant issues. You seem to want, new chips, and all the same test systems we have currently, with people, and robots etc. to help catch illegal settings?...

EDIT: As for my being out of a job. hahahaha. You obviously have no clue about what I do. Cheapo shot and doesn't help your side of the discussion.

 

[Chicago]

Naming names impedes my conspiracy to take over the world.

Look, all I know is that the one thing that makes semi-auto a joke is that players can hide and secretly change their gun settings. That has to be fixed. Until you fix that, anything else you do is a waste of effort.

The only other way to make guns fair is the PSP/NXL route of a flat BPS limit that everyone is allowed to shoot. The problem is that when that limit is 15 bps, we lose too many potential new customers when people play under those conditions and don't have fun.


So, if we want paintball to be fair, and we want paintball to be successful, we *MUST* eliminate secret software in gun chips. Period. Is eliminating secret software a silver bullet that is going to stop all gun cheating forever? Of course not. Are there going to be challenges? Sure. But the alternatives are worse - insurance figures out that people are playing NPPL shooting 22 bps. Markers that shoot 22 bps continue to infiltrate lower and lower down the paintball food chain, continuing to drive new players away.


Why not stop trying to find reasons it won't work, and start trying to find ways to make it work?

 

[Robbo]

Naming names impedes my conspiracy to take over the world.

You will never usurp me...never !

 

[ollytheosteo]

The problem is that when that limit is 15 bps, we lose too many potential new customers when people play under those conditions and don't have fun.

Whilst I feel a little nervous bringing my tiny human brain into this lofty same ol' s**t discussion, I'm sorry, what

We've agreed upon these boards many (many many many ) times that human fingers can only shoot so fast except for the three guys everyone knows who can shoot 17bps
So anyone shooting 22bps to 'have fun' is cheating, right? If we got rid of a few of the arseholes that think shooting 22bps at someone is fun, wouldn't that help us achieve a better game for everyone? And who the hell can't have fun playing paintball at 15bps FFS?

 

[ollytheosteo]

Surely a 15bps cap is a good idea for more reasons than just rules/cheating bull****? I know we all love getting bunkered at 31bps but I can't believe it's a safe practice in the long term.
As a practical solution a 15bps cap is safe, more easily enforced by any league wishing to spend the money on the wonderful toys and still rocks to play with
Hell, you can even call it semi only if you like and have rules etc as you can cheat all you wish and still only get up to 15 or get zapped (where is the Radar/Taser combo- Manike?) It's not perfect but as Lane has demonstrated it can be insured and is a workable solution until all the big brains on here sort the matter out. Speaking of which, I now look forward to being smashed into the intellectual ground, patronised rotten and spanked for my presumption but hey, that's how I feel.
I'm off to polish my pumps now

 

[Chicago]

And who the hell can't have fun playing paintball at 15bps FFS?

Anybody who is not an experienced tournament player.

Problem is, when your inexperienced players get shot at 15 BPS, usually by other inexperienced players shooting 15 BPS that don't know how to NOT shoot the guy they are bunkering 7 times, they quit before they become experienced tournament players.

Although I'm not sure if you're saying that 15 BPS is more than enough speed and people shouldn't complain about not being able to shoot faster, or if you're saying 15 BPS is plenty slow enough and people shouldn't complain about getting shot at 15 bps. If it's the former, then, here here.

Either way, 'fun' for new players probably ends at 7-10 bps.