Like it or not, we need Yank teams over here
- Thread starter Robbo
- Start date
In an ideal world, we need the following to happen and if this course is taken, it then optimizes the future for player, team, industry and promoter both sides of the Atlantic :-
The age old problem of integration Stateside is a nettle that needs to be grasped now and dealt with. Petty self interested people who have resisted this in the past need to fu kk off and go and do their own thing if they wish but paintball needs an integrated pro circuit now !!!
Once that is effected, it then frees up resources (time and money) for the Yank teams and industry to exploit the European theatre in terms of supporting their stable of teams to come here and compete thus making the most of their investments (teams).
It really is as easy as that but all the time we have non-corporate thinking companies still involved, it's gonna be an uphill struggle.
Some of these people need to sell up and fu kk off or change the way they do business, their way of thinking is anachronistic and self-defeating.
The age old problem of integration Stateside is a nettle that needs to be grasped now and dealt with. Petty self interested people who have resisted this in the past need to fu kk off and go and do their own thing if they wish but paintball needs an integrated pro circuit now !!!
Once that is effected, it then frees up resources (time and money) for the Yank teams and industry to exploit the European theatre in terms of supporting their stable of teams to come here and compete thus making the most of their investments (teams).
It really is as easy as that but all the time we have non-corporate thinking companies still involved, it's gonna be an uphill struggle.
Some of these people need to sell up and fu kk off or change the way they do business, their way of thinking is anachronistic and self-defeating.
Why?
It's just fine if Europe sucks at paintball, just like it's fine that Europe sucks at American football, and Europe sucks at Baseball, and Europe sucks at Basketball, and Europe sucks at racing cars that don't have nifty fins on them. We'll give you guys football and cricket.
No sport has an international Pro circuit. Football is probably the closest with World Cup. Other than that, the TOP Pro league is on one continent or another, and trying to make paintball any different is just banging your head against the wall. And the more paintball advances, the *LESS* interest there is going to be in any international circuit. Hell, over here, we don't even want teams from Canada.
There is absolutely no reason to do anything about the lack of integration across the continents, because it doesn't matter to ANYBODY except a handful of pro players. Whether Europeans are any good at paintball is Not Our Problem, and since it's only a problem for you, there's really no reason for us to help you fix it. European teams not being as good as American teams just simply does not matter. It's not like anyone is going to sell more product or more entry fees or anything else if European teams become as good as American teams. Hell, the only team to REALLY succeed at this (the Russians) stopped playing in Europe entirely!
And if you disagree, and think this really *IS* a problem that has to be fixed, there's a simple way to fix it: If you guys want more attention from the industry, sell more stuff.
Chris, you ask 'why'? and yet the first sentence of my above post gives the reason why but in saying that, I do agree with some of what you say in that it really matters most to a few people in terms of player base.
The main integration isn't US / Europe but US / US, the European addition was just me wishing for a transatlantic extension.
I think you may be getting a litrtle confused when you say 'No sport has an internatoinal pro circuit', many sports have international pro events.
Soccer, Rugby union, Rugby league, cricket, cycling, bloody hell, the list goes on...but sometimes, some of you guys got yer head so far up yer own arse, you think that if you don't know about it then it don't exist ....WRONG !!!!!
I am advocating an event league Chris, and if the Yanks wanna participate in every leg, then fanatstic, great, I would wlecome that with open arms because we need the Yanks.
As for you saying that as a sport becomes more professional the less it will look toward internationalizing, well, I think that's a uniquely American thing because of the way you guys see the world.
If the world was portrayed as a homonculus, you guys would definitely be the head, and that's not necessarily a compliment but is indicative of your obsession in believing you are the be all and end all and there's not much outside..
Now, whilst you may not wish to view a sport in international terms, the rest of the world might, and with Europe being more of a growth market than you guys at the moment, it would be ironic if the pendulum did swing our way a bit
The main integration isn't US / Europe but US / US, the European addition was just me wishing for a transatlantic extension.
I think you may be getting a litrtle confused when you say 'No sport has an internatoinal pro circuit', many sports have international pro events.
Soccer, Rugby union, Rugby league, cricket, cycling, bloody hell, the list goes on...but sometimes, some of you guys got yer head so far up yer own arse, you think that if you don't know about it then it don't exist ....WRONG !!!!!
I am advocating an event league Chris, and if the Yanks wanna participate in every leg, then fanatstic, great, I would wlecome that with open arms because we need the Yanks.
As for you saying that as a sport becomes more professional the less it will look toward internationalizing, well, I think that's a uniquely American thing because of the way you guys see the world.
If the world was portrayed as a homonculus, you guys would definitely be the head, and that's not necessarily a compliment but is indicative of your obsession in believing you are the be all and end all and there's not much outside..
Now, whilst you may not wish to view a sport in international terms, the rest of the world might, and with Europe being more of a growth market than you guys at the moment, it would be ironic if the pendulum did swing our way a bit
But Pete - we need to prioritise here! - That is my entire point, and why I don't understand you siding with Glen
If we WANT to improve - then we also need the events more focussed on "the top" . catering for their needs - to allow them to improve.
I am by no means saying we should "forget the little people" - or whatever negative spin someone may put on what I am saying.... I'm merely suggesting that we should think about what type of paintballers we want to attract to the events:
- Those that believe they take paintball seriously as a sport
- Or those that are just looking for a good time
Again - one does not completely preclude the other - but we need to prioritise the order of things!
As for my previous statement of "why should we care?" - I actually think Chris has a point. Ofcourse it should be the ultimate goal of any serious athlete to become best in the world...... but it seems illogical to me, that the best league in the world should be in Europe.... when the market in the US is so much bigger.
To me, it would make more sense to have a European league, with the best European teams.... and those that then believe they have what it takes, can go across and play in the US - just like you and I did.
It's not that different from the best American footballers going to Europe to play - and the best basketball players going to the US to play.
You tried putting a whole team in a US league with Nexus, as did the Tigers and Tontons a couple of years ago.... playing in the toughest league in the world.... did the teams improve from it? - did their results in Europe improve following their "american exposure"?
- I think not - because there is such a thing as getting your ass kicked TOO much, that makes even the most talented team suck perpetually.... just ask Tom Cole
I know it appars I am saying contradictory things here... but I am really not... I want a European league, focussed on SPORT - as is European culture - I want European paintball to improve on European terms.... and one day down the line, we will have reached to goal our own way.
In the meantime, those that can't wait, can go play for US teams or do the "Joy thing" to their hearts content.
Nick
If you want to make any money, I suggest you attract the latter...
Nick, while I understand your reasoning, I think you are chasing a Utopian dream.
Nick, I think in 2003 Nexus did in fact learn very quickly from the Yanks and from nothing in Europe, we went to being the best in the UK and maybe second to the Russkies in Europe, we beat Joy in that year at Toulouse and so I don't think you can suggest teams cannot learn from playing against the best.
Also, we didn't get our ass handed to us in that first year, we qualified for all but two Sunday clubs (one of those was where we were cheated out by Rage falsifying their score card) as I remember ending up world 7th ranked overall in that first year.
Well all that was before some of the players disappeared up their own arse.
Playing against the best can and does improve your game if you manage those games appropriately.
I honestly believe that if left to our own devices, we will slip further and further behind and maybe that's not as important to some and maybe not, I can only speak for myself here.
As for prioritizing?
I 100% agree but i am up for a more socialist approach whereby we focus on the majority and if the elite wanna step up a gear and go Stateside, then good luck to them but in the meantime, let's get those Yanks over here and start ramping up our events
It is no coincidence Nick that the buzz of yesteryear in events such as Toulouse has not been present since the Yanks stayed at home.
We gotta forget the idea of a league based tournament series and go for an event based extravaganza (much like the Tennis Grand Slams) and we do this because, we ain't mature enough to yet go down the league road, and we certainly don't have the money.
Hmmmm, I have just had an idea .........I might make you famous Nick.......let me stew on it awhile, I'll be in touch
Also, we didn't get our ass handed to us in that first year, we qualified for all but two Sunday clubs (one of those was where we were cheated out by Rage falsifying their score card) as I remember ending up world 7th ranked overall in that first year.
Well all that was before some of the players disappeared up their own arse.
Playing against the best can and does improve your game if you manage those games appropriately.
I honestly believe that if left to our own devices, we will slip further and further behind and maybe that's not as important to some and maybe not, I can only speak for myself here.
As for prioritizing?
I 100% agree but i am up for a more socialist approach whereby we focus on the majority and if the elite wanna step up a gear and go Stateside, then good luck to them but in the meantime, let's get those Yanks over here and start ramping up our events
It is no coincidence Nick that the buzz of yesteryear in events such as Toulouse has not been present since the Yanks stayed at home.
We gotta forget the idea of a league based tournament series and go for an event based extravaganza (much like the Tennis Grand Slams) and we do this because, we ain't mature enough to yet go down the league road, and we certainly don't have the money.
Hmmmm, I have just had an idea .........I might make you famous Nick.......let me stew on it awhile, I'll be in touch
Well, you know what second tier golf and tennis tourneys do, they use appearance fees to entice the top players. If Euroland wants Yanks let them pay for them.
No thanks - I'd much rather remain infamousHmmmm, I have just had an idea .........I might make you famous Nick.......let me stew on it awhile, I'll be in touch
As for the other stuff, I think we are talking past eachother.
I am saying that the MS NEEDS to prioritise the European "elite" - and I use that word carefully, full well knowing that it's a very loaded word.
I am not talking about the better teams getting booze, hookers, parties and limousines.... but them being presented with a league like in other European sports - where they can grow and improve within that system.
To me, this does not in any way mean less priorty on the lower divisions, because my thesis is that in EUROPE, most of the teams want the exact same system..... I do NOT believe they want to go to "festivals" - I believe they want to be part of a real bonafide league organisation.
The reason I believe so, is that almost ANY sport that has ever been successfull in Europe, has gone along the route of a league system with numerous tiers and promotion/relegation.... it is something all europeans are brought up with, it is the way we are used to sports being, and a system we are extremely knowledgable about and competent to work within.
In the US the picture is much different - their sports are structured with High School Sports, on to College Sports - and then you either quit sports, of get picked up by a professional team.
Ask the owner of the Kidderminster Harriers what his ultimate goal for the club is... and he will say "Premier League"..... ask the owner of the Bakersfield Blaze (Baseball) the same question, and he will tell you he is affiliated with the Texas Rangers, and that his role is to scout and develop players for them.
(yes - broad strokes here - and probably numerous marginal examples of it being different - but this is a principle debate)
Paintball is obviously still in its infancy in terms of organisation.... but we have to be carefull what we wish for in Europe, because we may end up permanently marginalising our sport, if we choose to look too much to the US for inspiration on how to structure it.
Now, I am well aware that the NPPL does indeed use a league system, albeit not being in effect as far down in the series as in the MS.... but I honestly believe that to be an anomoly, that will at some point be phased out - most definitely when tv becomes a factor. The PSP is structured much more like US sports are traditionally.
Now, none of this precludes US teams from taking part in the MS..... but I think it is important that we maintain a league system, because that is the only way we can hope to ever attract european tv and corporate sponsors over here.
If you asked me to sit down with Carlsberg tomorrow, and explain paintball to them, and why they should buy the rights to field 1 at all MS events.... there would be a chance (with some further adjustments to the series).... but if you asked me to sell them a sponsorship to 5 "paintball festivals", they wouldn't know what to do with it, where to get the budget in their marketing department, how to go about capitalising it.... it would be between two chairs... it wouldn't be sports, and it wouldn't be a real festival.... and because of that uncertainty, the sale would be made impossible.
Heck, even European snowboarding, arguably the most alternative sport in recent decades, had to adobt a traditional european sports strategy (and join the FIS), before it became a viable professional sport in Europe.
Snowboarding in Europe = FIS World Cup
Snowboarding in the US = X-games and similar event types
More money in the US way - but ONLY in the US
So, my point is this:
If people want US teams to take part in the MS - by all means - but it is extremely important they do it under the same terms as the European teams.... and that we persist in trying to make paintball a european sport, in Europe.
Nick