Stakos Illegal in Millennium Series!

[Lucky]

cheers for the update mate.
sounds like fast filling puts it under pressure, like any other bottle really.
And the lining thing makes sense.
cheers due for going out of your way.

Now i know most people don't get trained .....they just do it, but the guy that showed me how to fill a tank explained that they "MUST" be filled slowly, yet if you watch people at any filling station it seems that quick is the normal (usually 30 seconds before a game)
If you don't believe me, speed fill your tank and then touch it a few seconds later and see just how warm it is? any rapid heating and cooling of a vessel will weaken it.

Surely the owness must be on event organisers to display correct filling instructions and too monitor the way players are filling their tanks, and advise if they are speed filling.

"ANY" tank will suffer an adverse effect if it is speed filled, so lets not bash Stako just yet until all the TRUE facts are know and replied too.

 

[Revolt]

safe or not, i cant get my head around the fact that something holding 4500psi is designed to leak air through the outside shell :|

 

[KitsuneAndy]

safe or not, i cant get my head around the fact that something holding 4500psi is designed to leak air through the outside shell :|

The thing I dont understand is where the air comes from in the first place.

Yes, I know there can be a gap between the outside shell and the inner liner. But assuming both inside and outside shells are airtight, where does the air between the layers come from? I'd have assumed that the space between the two layers was created to be a vacuum and not contain air.

 

[Revolt]

well, if air can be pushed through the outside shell... then either the inside lining isnt airtight, or air also comes in through the outside shell

my guess would be as you start to fill the lining inside doesnt expand quick enough and so air gets through, now if you imagine filling while already at 500psi, the inside and outside are already bonded together so there is no gap... so there is no space and the tank fills normally, bbut when the tanks empty and the inside lining shrinks as you start to fill it air comes in faster than the lining can expand therefor it has a small space between the 2 layers in which to go into, and then out the shell of the bottle....

my general thoughts would be.... sack that for a laugh

 

[Big Mac]

Now i know most people don't get trained .....they just do it, but the guy that showed me how to fill a tank explained that they "MUST" be filled slowly, yet if you watch people at any filling station it seems that quick is the normal (usually 30 seconds before a game)
If you don't believe me, speed fill your tank and then touch it a few seconds later and see just how warm it is? any rapid heating and cooling of a vessel will weaken it.

Surely the owness must be on event organisers to display correct filling instructions and too monitor the way players are filling their tanks, and advise if they are speed filling.

"ANY" tank will suffer an adverse effect if it is speed filled, so lets not bash Stako just yet until all the TRUE facts are know and replied too.

yup on the ukpsf website i believe they have calculated appropriate filling times and speeds for each different type of bottle, i.e. stako, fibre wrap etc etc

thing is in certain circumstances there is not the time to faff around filling stopping, waiting and filling again - or should it be that certain formats are unsuitable.

h-pac provide a reasonably slow fill but if i have time i still stop and wait a few seconds before continuing - i hate that warm bottle.

 

[stiler83]

The Fibre wrap on any of these type of bottles are not designed to be air tight. They ARE designed to allow the bottles fill through in the event of a split internal liner.
There have been many people in this thread talking about their worry that the bottles will explode, but this is the exact reason for the fibre wrap. It is there to stop that kind of thing happening.
I have seen fibre wrapped bottles tested by filled to a higher than working pressure and the internal lining deliberately ruptured and not once have I seen one actually explode but just leak the fill through the wrap as there were designed to do.
IMO there is no place of any doubt when it comes to HPA but I do think there have been a few people on here commenting about things which they know very little about which could damage peoples livelihoods. I have faith in H-Pac and Stako to sort this all out and am sure they are both working as speedily as possible to do so for everyone's sake.. They are very knowledgably guys so rest assured they are only looking out for our welfare.

 

[pid]

Now i know most people don't get trained .....they just do it, but the guy that showed me how to fill a tank explained that they "MUST" be filled slowly, yet if you watch people at any filling station it seems that quick is the normal (usually 30 seconds before a game)
If you don't believe me, speed fill your tank and then touch it a few seconds later and see just how warm it is? any rapid heating and cooling of a vessel will weaken it.

"ANY" tank will suffer an adverse effect if it is speed filled, so lets not bash Stako just yet until all the TRUE facts are know and replied too.

Exactly !!

 

[Rider]

The Fibre wrap on any of these type of bottles are not designed to be air tight. They ARE designed to allow the bottles fill through in the event of a split internal liner.
There have been many people in this thread talking about their worry that the bottles will explode, but this is the exact reason for the fibre wrap. It is there to stop that kind of thing happening.
I have seen fibre wrapped bottles tested by filled to a higher than working pressure and the internal lining deliberately ruptured and not once have I seen one actually explode but just leak the fill through the wrap as there were designed to do.
IMO there is no place of any doubt when it comes to HPA but I do think there have been a few people on here commenting about things which they know very little about which could damage peoples livelihoods. I have faith in H-Pac and Stako to sort this all out and am sure they are both working as speedily as possible to do so for everyone's sake.. They are very knowledgably guys so rest assured they are only looking out for our welfare.

exactly right. a carbonfibre/kevlar wrap is in no way airtight, nor should it be. if it was the wrap would be completely inflexible, rather than the slight flexibilty it needs to have to do its job. the job is to reinforce the liner and in the event of the liner rupturing to contain the liner and vent the air. nothing else - the wrap is in no way what holds the air in your tank. during the manufacturing process of any fibrewrap - stako or otherwise - some air will be trapped between adjacent fibres and between the liner and the wrap.

this is why those of you with bottles that have a sealant over the fibrewrap may see bubbles and imperfections in its surface.

in the case of aluminium lined bottles this air is normally forced out on the first pressure fill as the aluminium ungergoes some slight streching on initial fill due to its inherent softness.

with stakos if it has a plastic liner and the bottle is filled the same thing will happen. however on emptying completely the plastic will collapse inward slightly, and the resulting vacuum between the liner and the wrap will pull air in. on filling again the air will be pushed out as the liner expands. now we are only talking about miniscule movements here, so the amount of air should be very small. the flash filling may cause the actual liner to expand beyond its elastic-limits causing it to split or forceably impact on the fibrewrap.

if this is the case then think again why we are ALWAYS taught to fill bottles slowly......

what do i know - i'm only an chemist.....

 

[Tom37]

didnt ms say that all the stako range had been banned? not just the super light ones? if the other ones leak, then surley theres something wrong? as they dont have the baloon inside?

 

[Robin Hood]

Dear Jere,

The investigation is still on, but we have not received back the bottles
questioned by Millennium, I think we will get them next week. We need to
define whether it is indeed some manufacturing problem and if so, which
production batch. We are suspicious about the filling rate and we will need
to investigate whether it was possible that there are some internal cracks
due to extreme fast filling (less than half a minute).

We are preparing a special website dedicated to our paintball cylinder and
there will be a lot of information in 1 to 2 weeks maximum.

Best regards,
Arek

-----Original Message-----
From: Jere malila [mailto:xxxx@xxxxxxx.fi]
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 6:35 AM
To: a.kubasik@stako.pl
Subject: Re: Safety of Stako's paintball tank!

Hello,

Do you have any better information what really happened @ Millennium series,
Germany? There's many rumours going as we speak and it would be great to
have more fact information. It seems that as long as there's no better
information about situation all your bottle will be forbitten in Finland.

Waiting for facts,
-Jere Malila, Finland-

---clip---
Hi,

So far we do not have ANY confirmation that there was really leaking bottle.
Even if there was one or two, it is the most important to find out why. We
do not produce leaking bottles, so there must be some condition like fast
filling that would cause the leak. We are still waiting for the bottles that
has been questioned in Germany. When we get them next week we will start the
testing and in the next couple of days our report will be ready. Then we
will publish it.

Thanks,
Arek


---
Hi again,

Still one question: Have you got confirmed that there really was _leaking_
bottles at Germany or just normal bubbling like informed at press statement?

-J-

So it could be down to the flash filling? I'm sure you can fill most of your tank in about 10 seconds or less at a lot of fill stations now, let alone 30. Wasn't there a thread discussing the rate of fill and safety issues associate with it a while back?

Looks like it'll be another week or so until we get some solid scientific facts about the tanks from Stako.